tv [untitled] May 20, 2011 3:30am-4:00am EDT
i praye should consider potential areas for development in south atlantic and the gulf but you. know you're watching r t the headlines for you this hour the doubt former head of the international monetary fund he's granted bail and placed under house arrest on charges of attempted rape but there are fears the euro won't survive without him. regime replacement president obama says he wants an immediate transition of power in syria and he's giving a keynote speech outlining america's policies in the middle east. outrage in but
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if you can. follow in welcome to cross talk i'm cuter a little a loveless marriage or a dangerous embrace take your pick but pakistani american relations probably can't get any worse barring a complete breach where is this troubled relationship going and can both sides find a common language regarding the fate of afghanistan. can. start. to cross pakistani u.s. relations i'm joined by our men my g.d.r. in washington he's a senior research associate at the american enterprise institute and islamabad we have seen a saki she is a security analyst and columnist and in tucson we cross the labor hudson she's an
associate professor at the university of arizona all right folks this is crossed out that means you can jump in anytime you want and i very much encourage it but first let's take a look at where this troubled relationship stands now. pakistan and the u.s. strategic allies on a collision course both say they are committed to fighting terror though each in its own way and both have divergent ideas about geo political interests pakistani american relations have rarely been described as good but i can hear us navy seal raid killed osama bin laden on may second the shaky alliance is finally in question the fact of the world's most wanted was discovered in the campaign near islamabad. the american distrust of pakistan even some of pakistan's biggest supporters in the u.s. have had to put on a brave face coming to terms with the fact that pakistan may have been harboring bin laden for years it is fair to say that some of the colleagues in the oceans
that deep reservations whether it. is the same goals were prepared to be a full partner pursuing those goals and there are calls in some quarters in chorus for a shift in. april. less there is an improvement in the current situation well american lawmakers may be losing faith in their pakistani counterparts pakistanis have paired all accusations and denounced washington's unilateralist according to islam of the u.s. has time and again violated pakistan sorry to hear and not only this back is going to nightly in the betting all qaeda has infallibly reminded us who too has been a victim of terrorism such baseless speculation may make exciting cable news but it doesn't reflect fact pakistan has as much reason to despise al qaeda as any nation
and the war on terrorism is as much pakistan's more as it is america's recently the obama administration and its allies in congress have been scrambling to keep tensions from spiraling out of control i mean washington say they want to reconsider aid to pakistan approximately twenty billion dollars over the last decade but few want to provoke pakistan into shutting down transit with its politically diverse troops stationed in afghanistan. our partnerships including our close cooperation with pakistan have helped put. pressure on al qaida and its leadership continued cooperation will be just as important in the days and those days ahead are all about a renewed focus on afghanistan where there is little evidence that foreign troops can capture and kill more insurgents and their presence helps to recruit and though the one administration knows the status quo in its relations with pakistan is
unlikely to remove it also realizes that censoring pakistan's cooperation is vital to its strategic goals in the region. charnel cross-talk r.t. . ok i'd like to go to you first in tucson you got up first this morning for the program we just heard some words from one u.s. secretary of state clinton about how important this relationship is but a few hours ago we had defense secretary gates say the following if i were in pakistani shoes i would say i've really i've already paid a price i've been humiliated it's been shown that the americans can come in here and do this with impunity now that is gloating here so even within the administration there seems to be a huge difference in how to approach this where do we go from here because the americans are saying this is an important relationship but you should feel humiliated and we will do it again if we want how do you how do you square the circle there. well i think what's going on first of all is there were on the
eve of an obama administration reset of american policy not only in pakistan afghanistan but also throughout the whole middle east so we are coming up on what we think will be a major speech by obama in which he doesn't actually directly address this particular case but using the example of egypt shows how he wants to read the gauge the leverage that the united states exerts over some of its military partners in this case namely egypt i think the stage has been set for this reset with a kind of a good cop bad cop routine within the the american administration some people are acting as the good cops carry perhaps clinton. tending to the traditional allies relationship with pakistan and emphasizing you know that this codependent
relationship is still central and very important while others obama himself. gates and mullen are emphasizing the harder and in their bad cop role emphasizing. an attempt to put america in the driver's seat and to use their our military aid and leverage. to pummel the pakistanis into. a more compliant relationship with us in test whether that will work remains to be seen well it remains to be seen if if i'm going to ask me in washington if i am pakistanis will like that good cop bad cop approach because they can do exactly that could be united states if they wish they have a lot of cards actually don't think. yes indeed they do have i think it is important to highlight the fact that the united states and pakistan they have
conflicting interests and in afghanistan are so in the region and that has been the nature of the relationship between islamabad and washington for the past five decades indeed during the cold war we noticed. pakistan as main enemy was india but india and i'd say it allied with pakistan because of the soviet union and it is the same today the united states is fighting the taliban and its associates and afghanistan pakistan and its army and intelligence service supports some of the groups who are killing americans and afghans inside afghanistan and also victimizing the pakistani people inside pakistan as well so what's important to destroy both sides. what's important now for both sides is to align their interests and retain their relationship because this is not sustainable . and above all it's important for pakistan to rethink its policy into
a region and to our east india and afghanistan as well stop using terrorism as a policy tool and instead cooperate with the united states and the international community to eliminate the terrorist group which is. operating freely on its soil and i think that the killing of a large and provides very good opportunity to start with again i think it is lima but what about that i mean the talk about our reset obama tried that before there wasn't much success there was before the great awakening but what kind of reset this islamic jihad want to have with washington again we know it takes two to tango in this relationship and it was just pointed out islamic that has a lot of cards to play. there is some of our guys have a lot of cards to play from about also is in a bind its internal security situation is inch chatter it's.
terror attacks all over the country and the us drone strikes in the tribal belt and now crossing over into have been carrying out a unilateral military operation go against the sentiments of the population it is not about has to take into account this is a democratic government. also the entire us. sort of agenda against the intelligence community in pakistan the strategic intelligence community in pakistan has been whipped up against a background of these strikes which are considered aggressive by the pakistani population so rather than giving the democratic. community in pakistan a chance to actually reset the relationship internally between the civil and the military and redefine it for all times to come it has made them come to the aid of the intelligence community to to try to protect them because the intel people of pakistan are of the same opinion they think this is
a conspiracy against pakistan they're trying to cut off the head of the pakistan military and a headless body as you know is useless very easy to conquer so the manner in which the u.s. is operating inside pakistan is not helping any of the stakeholders in pakistan that's one thing if i go to if i go to tucson here well what do you think about that because congress is threatening to take money away from the the huge age package that was given last year i mean again i mean is this just treating pakistan is a truant child because the sentiment in pakistan is very anti-american as was pointed out. you know i think it's a very it's a very tricky game to play i think it's absolutely correct to say that to the extent that the united states is perceived to be is acting unilaterally gloating taking a heavy hand one of the risks that this run is of alienating the palace or
the pakistani opulence and trenching support within the military intelligence establishment i think this is not the goal i think the endgame in fact of the obama administration is to try and preserve some of the larger structure of the alliance while again shifting some of the internal support away from the most unpredictable and erratic elements of the military intelligence structure. towards other elements in the pakistani establishment again it is a very tricky policy and i think the reflection of this good cop bad cop approach to the problem shows that the obama administration is trying again to lead from behind trying to push its leverage in certain ways without inflaming the situation further but again it's a very difficult role to play i come back again to the case of egypt where in
fact really let me jump in here with me we're going to go to a break and after the break you discussed afghanistan r.t. . if you. live. bringing you the latest in science and technology from around the world. we've got the future of coverage. wealthy british style. markets why not. find out what's really happening to the global
economy because a report on our team. can. live . welcome back to cross talk i'm peter was about to remind you we're talking about u.s. and pakistan after in life. can. live . ok i cannot i can go back to you in washington europe we haven't mentioned the eight hundred pound gorilla in this discussion it's getting out of afghanistan the u.s. wants to get out of afghanistan now the pakistanis want the americans out of pakistan but they just have different visions and doing that that's what's causing all this tension here isn't it least at this stage here with all of the gloating that we've heard. yes absolutely afghanistan. is
a very contentious issue between the united states and pakistan as and i mentioned before the united states and pakistan have conflicting interests in afghanistan. the taliban and its associated are the enemies of americans and the afghan government while they are supported by certain circles within the pakistani establishment this year two thousand and seven will be a very critical year. in july the obama administration is planning to a draw. begin withdrawal of troops from the camp three and also it is the beginning of transition of security responsibilities to security forces. have to have been allowed in scaling now the critical software here in the united states as well they're there they're trying to convince and ministration to call it mission accomplished. leave afghanistan but i think that'll be very much huge mistake because i've been alarmed and it's gone but the terror infrastructure and the
ideology is still there as we saw the taliban announces july first spring offensive and we've seen a spike of violence all across the country and there are even foreign fighters in eastern afghanistan fighting so if the united states prematurely that would be very much huge mistake that washington abandon afghanistan in one thousand eight hundred nine and when it comes to the relations between the united states and pakistan there are also misconceptions. did elations will improve if the united states withdraw from afghanistan but i believe that the opposite holds true here if the united states. leaves afghanistan that will convince pakistan and its military and . its to can t. be a support for the taliban because they will see that the taliban. future of afghanistan so what it's needed now for russia to do is to show an enduring commitment to
afghanistan because to succeed in afghanistan means that pakistan also will change its calculus from supporting the taliban instead of that. later timid ways to have the strategic good tell also influence in the country ok if i go back to islam and so i guess it's all about who controls afghanistan not the afghans themselves are never mentioned in all this it's going to come from islamabad where it's going to be washington ok and they have their topic there is karzai they do want to support so i mean what what is the vision from the pakistani establishment what how do they want to see the americans leave destabilizing the country even more. when you know the pakistani establishment. has clearly shown his preference for the establishment of a trade corridor or through afghanistan connecting to pakistan connection to the arabian sea and they want it done in an atmosphere of peace and tranquility and harmony
between all the stakeholders in all the states in the region they want friendly government in afghanistan they want a friendly government in india and of course friendly governments and central asian states that connector afghanistan. in this entire matter pakistan does not see the us helping the u.s. has done absolutely nothing to. sort of bring about a more harmonious relationship between india and pakistan in fact every time they just sort of you know they they're like this is none of our business we don't have to do this but they're very much involved in the region they're right in the middle between pakistan and the central asian countries trade relationships with the central asian countries can actually bring a lot of prosperity to pakistan and the u.s. lending is troops right smack in the middle there has ended up hurting pakistan's economic. prospects so given their their activity in the
region given their deep involvement in the region given its impact on pakistan and the same kind of me and it's politics america saying we don't have to interfere in the park relations this is a bilateral matter they should carry it out between themselves does not in their american position to that of the pakistani position the pakistani government the pakistani people the pakistani military looks at it in a very suspicious way you know they then of course like i said before be american military conduct in the region the american drone strikes the american lack of respect for pakistan's sovereignty can you was continuous criticism of the pakistani military intelligence the continuous. missions weist about it well if you are so suspicious why do you call it at the front lines be it why do you call it an alliance against terror i mean my skin not be built on suspicion i could have could
be suspicious you i don't have to say you're not with us or you have to see you. guys and it's actually a united states of america which is constantly not it has not taken a clear position on this issue and it's causing a lot of confusion inside pakistan also. it has come forth wife it quite honestly if you ask me the relationship has broken down it's a question of time before both sides are going to have to articulate it out right. now it's very leanly and it's peter kind of also he's just been. very. just to just response to my colleague from islamabad. the pakistani government the pakistani people want friendly relations and our sister ability and. afghanistan i would agree with that but i think there she is talking about this civilian government and now run by the presidents of the already but unfortunately this indian government
in pakistan is in no position to run its foreign policy and decide on major national issues but it is usually decided by the army and intelligence service. policies that the army intelligence service are pursuing is not in line with the civilian government policies for example the existence of osama bin ladin to number one terrorists around the world just one mile from. pakistan's main military academy which is the. u.s. version of point chose that to what extent is supporting terrorism in the region. so i believe that when we are saying that this villian government supports stability that means nothing when they have no say in major foreign policy as well if i can go to you into something and i mean if i have any real quickly i want to reply. you know i just wanted to say even in the handling of the bin ladin as hand
if united states of america had just shown our body yes that of body it would have enabled the civilian government in pakistan to go after they're all going to ments in the i.s.i. if there are any it would have enabled it to take the nation on board and say you know we're not going to question our own intelligence agencies but what is going on inside our country everybody would have said that we're not showing of body rushing into the sea dumping it there is giving birth to what the americans love to call the conspiracy theories you know something we have to look at the core what is of this operation so what i'm saying is the american contacts in. south central asia right now is rather clumsy ok i'm glad you got it i want to go to you and to so i mean it's only a matter of time before the united states leaves afghanistan and we knew we could put out another ten years or so but the pakistanis and the taliban are various elements of the film and they're just waiting and waiting for that ok and they've shown a lot of a lot of staying power here so again you know i mean the americans are fewer and
fewer cards there's a lot of bluster and gloating and maybe it's all about domestic politics and budgets and things like that but at the end of the day the americans will leave it will be the people on the ground good people or bad people or indifferent people that will decide the outcome well i think we've already heard the beginnings of this process happening so there is more and more talk about accommodating the taliban in the long run again after this day. of the war on terror in fact the end game does involve. you know a merging of the pakistani vision afghanistan and the u.s. mission in afghanistan in order to do that however that's where i think we're getting this bluster and this gloating and. the bad cop part of the u.s. strategy in order to do that for domestic purposes within the united states.
there is this strategy are ramping up. the incursions ramping up the drone strikes ramping up the gloating and again to the extent that. undermines. the civilians or the rather weak civilian structures in pakistan it's a very dangerous game to what extent does this american strategy really sideline the military intelligence complex and to what extent does it actually increase the confusion increase popular support increase animosity and the accidental the so-called accidental guerrilla syndrome on both sides of the border it's hard to tell at this point again you have two different options here will the obama administration leverage its considerable influence in pakistan.
again on the egyptian model in which it seems to have come around leverage the egyptian military into a much more sustainable situation going forward or will it continue to look like the israeli model in which the beast continues to be fed and which netanyahu is literally looking over obama's shoulder as he makes this reset speech for the middle east and in which the regional so-called u.s. proxy actually continues to drive the relationship so will it go ok i want you to hear our words we want to hear you the only way in washington will you be the last word we got about twenty five seconds go ahead. just quickly i'd like to mention that i think that we have overstating the power and also influence of the american policy is inside pakistan i think that most of the problems that we see inside pakistan it's not as a result of the u.s. policies it's because of domestic policies so it's
a very good opportunity for pakistan to do some soul searching turned to five thousand innocent pakistani people have been murdered by terrorist activities over the past nineteen years so it is time for the. story of time to run out of time here many thanks mike you should be in washington islam about it and in tucson and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember crosstalk. if you. think you can.